Event:  Andrew McKellar interview on Sky News

Date: Monday 14 October 2024

Topics: Changing the legal definition of small business employers.

E&OE

Tom Connell:

Nation’s small business lobby group is calling for small business exemptions to be expanded to reduce red tape and also looking to redefine what is a small business. Joining me live is Andrew McKellar from the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry. So small business, 15 people is the definition. You want to nearly double it to 25. Why?

Andrew McKellar:

Well, it’s only 15 in most parts of the Fair Work Act. Of course there are other definitions that are used. But look, we think here the big issue is small business is facing real challenges in terms of the cost of doing business and also the regulatory impact, all of that time that they have to spend dealing with red tape. So what we’re saying is let’s make it easier for small business. Let’s give them an even break. Let’s lift that definition and take some of that burden of having to do all of that paperwork away and hope that they can create jobs and employment as a result.

Tom Connell:

I know we talk about red tape and I wouldn’t want to have to deal with it personally, but aren’t there more tools than ever computer programmes, even AI, the ability to deal with this? Isn’t it better than it’s been before? Why do we need to change this definition now?

Andrew McKellar:

Well, I think that there are a lot of tools, but the evidence that we have is that in the past 12 months or so, it has got a lot tougher for small business. So we surveyed small business earlier this year. More than 61 per cent of all respondents said that burden had increased in the past 12 months. Nearly half of all businesses, small businesses said that they were considering closing their doors as a result. The big change in that period of time has been the new rules that have come in, in terms of industrial relations, in terms of workplace arrangements. That’s making it, I think, a lot harder.

Tom Connell:

I’ll get to more on that in a moment. But in terms of if there was this change, this would also make it easy for business. When you say red tape, I mean there’d be fewer rights for workers, wouldn’t there? In terms of whether you are small or the next category up?

Andrew McKellar:

Well, not really. And I mean, I think for example here, it’s not a case of removing protections for things like unfair dismissals, but it is saying small business should have more time to adjust and more time to deal with those issues. So at the moment there’s a six-month provision for any business that’s over 15 employees, we’re saying simply push that period up to 25 employees. After that, it’s a 12-month period of grace that those small business…

Tom Connell:

Does make it easier to get rid of someone though, doesn’t it?

Andrew McKellar:

Well, it means that you can bring somebody on under a probation. You can ensure that they work and fit with your business. If it’s not going to work out, then that’s known in advance.

Tom Connell:

And that’s fair enough to argue that logic. But that is easier to not continue with it to have someone in a job and they’re no longer in a job. That’s the reality of it.

Andrew McKellar:

Sure. But look, I think the main point here, Tom, is it’s not about making it easier to get rid of people who don’t work out in your business. It’s much easier to make a decision about creating jobs and employing people.

Tom Connell:

We hear a lot from business around winding back some of the unfair dismissal changes. Is there any other specific example you’d point to where you would say a business should have the right to dismiss an employee that’s too hard to do right now?

Andrew McKellar:

Well, look, again, I think this is the wrong question. It’s not about the right to dismiss. It’s more about how do we create jobs? How do we make it easier? If you need to take somebody on as a casual employee, when do they have the right to convert? Potentially, how soon does that come? When do you have to start dealing with that paperwork? How do you work with an independent contractor? Do you have to let a union delegate to come on site? Do you have to give them leave or time off or pay them to be away from work? So it’s really questions and issues like that. Things that are taking up time that are not productive and not about creating jobs which serve the purpose of the business.

Tom Connell:

How much is this happening, this unwanted requests to become permanent?

Andrew McKellar:

It’s a significant factor. As I say, when we go and talk to small business, we find that 80 per cent….

Tom Connell:

So it’s happening. They don’t want to do it. They say, look, it’s a casual position. I’m sorry, it’s not certain enough right now. But they’re being forced to begin that process.

Andrew McKellar:

Absolutely, and that’s the response. Those are the issues that small businesses are raising with us. We think this would make a real difference.

Tom Connell:

Good. We’ll leave it there, Andrew McKellar. Thank you.