ACCI CEO Andrew McKellar interview on ABC Melbourne about tertiary education pathways
Transcript: 6 July 2026
Waleed Aly:
Andrew McKellar joins us now, head of the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry. Hello, Andrew.
Andrew McKellar:
Good morning, Waleed. Good to be you with you.
Waleed Aly:
What do you think we’re doing incorrectly here?
Andrew McKellar:
Well, look, I think what our message is, is that we need to get the balance right. So, we're not saying that universities aren't doing a great job or providing a great start or great education to many Australians and, in fact, many international students. But what we're saying is, let's also get the balance right. We don't want to see vocational education and training being neglected. We don't want to see it as the poor cousin to getting a university degree. And what the data shows is that in some cases, people are going into university and they're finding that that's not the right option for them. About 20 per cent of VET students currently come in with a prior university degree. So, certainly that can be of great value, but equally, what we want to ensure is that people are given the opportunity to make that choice at the start of the process and that they do see that there are very viable skills and job outcomes that can be incredibly rewarding and lead to great career choices at the start of that opportunity.
Waleed Aly:
I think you said, ‘given the opportunity to make that choice’. Are you suggesting they don't have that opportunity to make a choice now?
Andrew McKellar:
Well, I think the issue is that there has been, I think, a degree of intellectual snobbery going on here to some extent. And I think there's a lot of emphasis put on the importance of looking at university as a pathway and getting a university degree. Now, business I think has got to play its role and it's got to ensure that we are reaching out and ensuring that young people, as they go through the school system, they're aware of the career choices that they have and the training opportunities that they have. So look, I don't think anyone's been compelled, but I do think here it's an important case of ensuring that across society and for policymakers and for politicians, we're getting the message out to young people that there's that incredible choice that they have in front of them and that they have rewarding pathways by going into vocational education and training as well as, or the same as, going into university.
Waleed Aly:
Is it just about awareness? I've used throughout the morning the example of journalism. So for example, if you want to be a cadet at The Age or something, at least last time I checked this, you needed a university degree.
There's a previous era, and I know people from that previous era, who entered journalism, have very successful careers who left school at year 10 and journalism was a trade. They went off and learned it. They learned the ropes, they learned how you do it, they reported. Arguably, created a more diverse journalistic class because it wasn't all people who'd done university degrees and so on. Now, these are not government policy. These are things that come from within industry itself. I just wonder where the role is for that sort of thing in your thinking. And at some point, if you're going to go down that road, you would need to identify degrees that you think probably shouldn't exist, wouldn't you?
Andrew McKellar:
Look, I think business has a role to play. So I guess there is the context of what is required for a particular job. So obviously that is something that business has to reflect on, but equally we've got to look at what's the policy configuration, what are the financial incentives? Where is the funding going? And I'll pick an area; so apprenticeships, we've seen apprenticeship commencements decline significantly in the past four or five years. Part of that has been linked to the funding and the incentives that are there for a small business for a trade or a non-trade employer to take on a new apprentice. Now we've seen that stripped away. We saw it reduced again in the past 12 months, or in the recent budget. And the consequence of that is we're seeing those commencements in apprenticeships drop away.
Now, apprenticeships are a great way to learn. They're a great way to get a trade or a non-trade qualification and they can lead to really strong career outcomes and opportunities. But if we don't encourage more small businesses to take on an apprentice, then we're going to see that continue to drift as one of the career pathways for young Australians. So, some of it's financial, some of it is policy related, and some of it is obviously also the responsibility of business to ensure that it is getting the message out as well.
Waleed Aly:
Do you think you're overlooking the benefits of university?
Andrew McKellar:
No, I don't think we are. We've got many young Australians going into university and we need to continue to increase the opportunities for people to go into tertiary education. But whether that is to university as the main option or whether it's into other pathways, whether it's through the TAFE system or through private vocational education and training providers, that's where the emphasis has got to be. So, at the moment we've got about 60 per cent of people going into tertiary education. We want to increase that to about 80 per cent by 2050 — that's part of the Universities Accord. But we want to see a balance at the end of that, broadly, between vocational education and training and universities as the pathways that people are able to choose.
Waleed Aly:
But I suspect, maybe another way of asking it is this. Let's say I want job X and to get job X, I need qualification Y. But to get that qualification, I can either do it via a university or I can do it via a TAFE, or some other thing. What is the downside, do you think, of the funnel being driven to the university sector rather than others? I mean, we've even seen technical colleges and things like that become universities. So, it wouldn't even necessarily be bad for those institutions if they just became universities. Why is it that university is a less optimal or a suboptimal path for some of these things? Why can't we just embrace that as the path now?
Andrew McKellar:
Well, because it's not the only path. And I think this is the sort of risk of credentialism that we're trying to highlight is that in fact, there should be a number of pathways there. We should, I think, have a more joined-up approach to our tertiary education system. So, in fact, we should be looking for ways for people to be able to flexibly pick up skills, whether it's coming out of the university sector or whether it's coming out of vocational education and training. There should be recognition for prior learning. There should be opportunities to pick up skills and to get qualifications out of skills that you learn on the job as well.
So, it's how do we build a more integrated education and training system rather than having this kind of artificial break point between universities, which are the preferred way to go and vocational education and training, which is its poor cousin. And we don't think that's delivered the outcomes that we'll need to see as we move forward.
Waleed Aly:
Yeah. I better leave it there, Andrew, but it's a really interesting area. It's definitely hit a nerve, like the number of people texting and who were calling about it earlier in the show. There's definitely something here. So thank you very much for your contribution.
Andrew McKellar:
Well, that's why we asked the question.
Waleed Aly:
Andrew McKellar, head of the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry.